Huh. There's a lot I agree with here. Especially the last section about being good citizens, no more tax loopholes, etc. And not automatically equating anti-Israel with anti-semitism.
On the other hand, a lot I disagree with. Like throwing out morality. That's not really a Torah value or even a good secular value, is it? Morality is a good thing. An important thing. It's the foundation of a healthy society. Being nihilistic about morality is a bad thing. Amoral people are usually associated with psychopaths. We really don't want to encourage a psychopathic ideology in our society. And allying with MAGA who make a virtue out of being cruel, vindictive, and racist, and happen to be disproportionately include real, real anti-semites (of the "Hitler deserves an apology" type) is not a good idea.
It's ironic that you complain about mainstream media and health agencies but ally yourself with those who have no standards of truth in the first place. Like, the only reason somebody could complain about the CDC or the NYT is because they are expected to tell us the truth. With somebody like Trump or RFK or almost anybody else in his administration or the MAGA media, there is no such expectation in the first place. There is zero responsibility, they will openly tell more lies in five minutes than Dr. Fauci said in 5 years. And nobody will bat an eyelash anymore because it's just the expectation. You should read some Richard Hananiah. I recommend https://www.richardhanania.com/p/liberals-only-censor-musk-seeks-to, https://www.richardhanania.com/p/why-the-media-is-honest-and-good, https://www.richardhanania.com/p/kakistocracy-as-a-natural-result
Tribalism is not good for us. It's bad for us. A tribal world is a world in which it will be acceptable for the other tribes to want to kill us, no matter how honest we are in business, as we know from recent historical memory. And guess what? They outnumber us 1000 to 1.
There is a lot more to say, but that's enough for now.
"On the other hand, a lot I disagree with. Like throwing out morality. That's not really a Torah value or even a good secular value, is it? Morality is a good thing. An important thing. It's the foundation of a healthy society."
I am a moral person but I believe that, as this point, moralistic concepts have ceased to be unifying social currency...and that was the point of my post. In absence of morality we can either go fully tribal ("me see bad tribe me kill with rock") or respect other tribes and have utility as a currency. I do not see any other way out as morality has been too badly degraded for it to have proper use.
Think of this concept on a local level. Imagine if instead of being coerced into voting for specific candidates because "daas Torah" (another moral label that has been used to manipulate), the candidates we need to show their utility to us...without vague allusions to processes and backroom deals that have never helped us at all.
Like "we will not vote for you unless you widen Route 9."
or "you promised to get us free tuition and failed. we will not vote you"
Morality is very nice on a private level, but on communal or global scale it just opens us up to be controlled and manipulated......
"Tribalism is not good for us. It's bad for us. A tribal world is a world in which it will be acceptable for the other tribes to want to kill us, no matter how honest we are in business, as we know from recent historical memory. And guess what? They outnumber us 1000 to 1."
Not if we provide utility to them...as we have done throughout history...and that is literally my point.
(As far as your point about Trump versus MSM on lies....even if you are right, you are only fortifying my point...there is no trust anymore)
We have provided alot utility to the goyim throughout history, and they still massacred us. Alot of that can be blamed on specifically Christian anti-semitic teachings, but alot of it can be chalked up to good old tribalism, inflamed by the aformentioned Christian (or Islamic) teachings. The more tribalistic the population is, the more anti-semitism, the less safe we are. That's how it has been historically and how it it still is. Part of the problem with "we will provide utility to them" idea is that tribalistic people are usually pretty dumb, have a conspiratorial mindset, and will blame Jewish tribe for all their problems no matter how much utility the Jews provide. So it's much better to ally ourselves with the intelligent anti-tribalist people. We have historically fared much better in such societies, at least in terms of safety (Religiously, it might be a different story. Isn't that what the Beis Halevi said about הצילני נא מיד אחי מיד עשיו?)
But yes, it's a good idea to be good neighbors in order to reduce hatred. We are not good neighbors by any objective standard (at least in NY/NJ). I see it with my own eyes, and am appalled. We need to be much better. If you want a model for how we can be better, look to Baltimore.
It may sound like a beautiful thing, but if it will cause a family to have one less child, or to be too stressed out when raising their children, it isn't worth it.
I think the exponential long-term benefit provided which large families provide to society far outweighs the loss of some taxed or Medicaid.
I assume we are talking about particularly shifty practices ("chaps") that most would see as dishonest, even if it's not 100% illegal. But most people in the world, and for sure businesses, try to minimize their taxes, nothing wrong with that. I can't say where to draw the line. But we definitely should seriously consider how such practices would be seen by the average non-Jew.
I'm having trouble squaring this with your earlier claim that: "Vitalist Judaism believes that Judaism is a pluralistic religion, with each individual, community and era having their own path and connection to God within the confines of the halachic structure. The pluralism allows for diverse paths of connection to G-d and provide a counterbalance to each other."
You're making a lot of claims in this essay about what Jews need to do - including taking swipes at a number of other, unnamed Jews - and I am finding it hard to square this position with your earlier interest in Jewish pluralism. You sound very anti pluralist here, and and clearly anticipated that with your nod towards What's-His-Name. But maybe I'm not getting something here. Does that make more sense?
I am not taking a moral stand here, I am taking a pragmatic one. I fully understand if others do not agree with me and I would love to hear other takes.
As far as other jews, I only named ones that are anti-halacha. The framework that I laid out was within the confines of halacha….
I would like to post a full article in response to this if I have (or make) the time for it.
But first, I must repeat ad nauseum that criticizing other people is completely unproductive.
Especially re zoning issues: You have not offered any concrete alternative. Not that there isn't one, rather that criticizing the current situation is completely unproductive.
A prelude to my article (hopefully): I think the main thing Judaism has to offer these days is actually its core message and fits in very well with the vibe of the time (at least among intelligent people): Pronatalism, which stems from tribalism and nationalism and leads to a pro-growth, pro-abundance, pro-YIMBYISM, pro risk-taking, anti-universalism, anti anti inequality, anti NMBYISM, anti-environmentalism etc.
Currently there are 90k frum children in the Lakewood area, perhaps 350k in the entire NY and NJ. We should be pushing for Klal Yisroel to grow faster, not slower cha"v. We are the only ones still growing, aside for the Amish (even Mormons are barely at replacement rate).
Please outline a housing plan for hundreds of thousands of couples. Or at least start drawing a sketch. Do something productive, instead of focusing on criticizing.
Let's start with the fact that not everyone needs to live in the Lakewood area. If they still insist on living in and urbanizing that area, they shouldn't be surprised that the non-jewish local population gets riled up.
My criticism was of you pushing for more NIMBYism as if its a good and necessary thing without explaining where you draw the line and, especially, putting forth an explanation what we can do as a community to provide housing in another way, as this dynamic is inevitable unless we find another option. As long as people are desperate for housing, your screams about 'all trees being felled for housing' will fall on deaf ears. That just how society operates.
It's unreasonable to tell Jews not to live somewhere, not to build houses and shuls and schools, because the goyim might get mad. If the Jews spread out, they would still need houses and shuls and schools. They would still cause more traffic. The solution is to focus on being good neighbors wherever we live. To say we are not trying hard enough to do that is an understatement (at least in the NY/NJ area).
> To say we are not trying hard enough to do that is an understatement (at least in the NY/NJ area).
I would just push back slightly on this and ask if you know anywhere in the U.S. where large housing developments have been created on the scale necessary for the hundreds of thousands of couples iy"H in the coming decades.
I think housing is the greatest crisis facing Charedi Jewry worldwide, and the greatest threat to their continued high fertility. We must acknowledge, nit shrug it off and pretend that developers are the enemy. And we must look for innovative solutions. For instance, Chassidim will hopefully soon create a new shtetel in Florida (Lakefront). Litvaks should probably start with growing frum communities in Ohio (and perhaps Detroit). Once they outgrow that they too can perhaps build new shtetels far from hostile neighbors. 50% of U.S farmland is supposed to be in themarket in the next 20 years.
These aren't final plans, only conversation starters, but the conversation should start here, not with pointing fingers at developers, who are currently doing perhaps the most important job for the future of Jewry and the future of the last remaining pronatalist community in the modern world. If we don't put a major focus, in fact perhaps of our focus, on providing housing for the next generations I fear our fertility rate too may crash, which will be the greatest of tragedies cha"v.
I'm not saying we should or we shouldn't, I'm only saying that our decisions have consequences. If we choose to pack everyone in one area, the locals are going to react, and, as Yosef wrote, labeling them as antisemites is counter-productive.
Not arguing with that. That's what I mean by being good neighbors. We have to be better. Much, much better. That starts with thinking about our impact on neighbors. Doing outreach with our neighbors. Giving to their charities. Not taking over school boards and cutting their funding. Driving safely. Honesty in business. And lots more where many feel we are severely lacking.
At the same time, we have to recognize there will probably be a base level of anti semitism, simply due to how different we are and how different our culture is. If we build too much dense housing, they will complain we are densifying the area. If we don't and instead buy up a lot more houses, they will complain we are buying up whole neighborhoods. The haters will hate no matter what. But we can definitely do our part to minimize it.
I'm sorry to say, but 'their preferences' are generally just wrong.
NIMBYism and the entire mindset and culture which is associated with it (anti-growth, antinataalism etc.) are the worst thing for AMerica nd the U.S.
America is a huge country. We don't need any NIMBYism. There is plenty of open and empty land for those interested. What America needs is a heavy dose of YIMBYism. We are at the forefront of this battle and we just adopt this role with gusto, though at the same time taking care as much as possible to remain within the mentality of a 'gallus yid' to try to avoid antagonizing the nonJews as much as possible.
Of necessity, our priorities are very different than theirs, both out of religious necessity and because we are the only growing societies and communities in (non-rural) western countries.
We can't prevent the backlash, but we should bend over backwards to accommodate them whenever feasible.
We should never, ever accuse anyone of anti-semitism. I don't think that was ever a charedi thing to so.
I agree 1000%. I can't even tell you how much agree (Yosef Hirsh knows somewhat.) That is not what I am arguing with. Please read my comment carefully.
"Especially re zoning issues: You have not offered any concrete alternative. Not that there isn't one, rather that criticizing the current situation is completely unproductive."
Huh. There's a lot I agree with here. Especially the last section about being good citizens, no more tax loopholes, etc. And not automatically equating anti-Israel with anti-semitism.
On the other hand, a lot I disagree with. Like throwing out morality. That's not really a Torah value or even a good secular value, is it? Morality is a good thing. An important thing. It's the foundation of a healthy society. Being nihilistic about morality is a bad thing. Amoral people are usually associated with psychopaths. We really don't want to encourage a psychopathic ideology in our society. And allying with MAGA who make a virtue out of being cruel, vindictive, and racist, and happen to be disproportionately include real, real anti-semites (of the "Hitler deserves an apology" type) is not a good idea.
It's ironic that you complain about mainstream media and health agencies but ally yourself with those who have no standards of truth in the first place. Like, the only reason somebody could complain about the CDC or the NYT is because they are expected to tell us the truth. With somebody like Trump or RFK or almost anybody else in his administration or the MAGA media, there is no such expectation in the first place. There is zero responsibility, they will openly tell more lies in five minutes than Dr. Fauci said in 5 years. And nobody will bat an eyelash anymore because it's just the expectation. You should read some Richard Hananiah. I recommend https://www.richardhanania.com/p/liberals-only-censor-musk-seeks-to, https://www.richardhanania.com/p/why-the-media-is-honest-and-good, https://www.richardhanania.com/p/kakistocracy-as-a-natural-result
Tribalism is not good for us. It's bad for us. A tribal world is a world in which it will be acceptable for the other tribes to want to kill us, no matter how honest we are in business, as we know from recent historical memory. And guess what? They outnumber us 1000 to 1.
There is a lot more to say, but that's enough for now.
"On the other hand, a lot I disagree with. Like throwing out morality. That's not really a Torah value or even a good secular value, is it? Morality is a good thing. An important thing. It's the foundation of a healthy society."
I am a moral person but I believe that, as this point, moralistic concepts have ceased to be unifying social currency...and that was the point of my post. In absence of morality we can either go fully tribal ("me see bad tribe me kill with rock") or respect other tribes and have utility as a currency. I do not see any other way out as morality has been too badly degraded for it to have proper use.
Think of this concept on a local level. Imagine if instead of being coerced into voting for specific candidates because "daas Torah" (another moral label that has been used to manipulate), the candidates we need to show their utility to us...without vague allusions to processes and backroom deals that have never helped us at all.
Like "we will not vote for you unless you widen Route 9."
or "you promised to get us free tuition and failed. we will not vote you"
Morality is very nice on a private level, but on communal or global scale it just opens us up to be controlled and manipulated......
"Tribalism is not good for us. It's bad for us. A tribal world is a world in which it will be acceptable for the other tribes to want to kill us, no matter how honest we are in business, as we know from recent historical memory. And guess what? They outnumber us 1000 to 1."
Not if we provide utility to them...as we have done throughout history...and that is literally my point.
(As far as your point about Trump versus MSM on lies....even if you are right, you are only fortifying my point...there is no trust anymore)
We have provided alot utility to the goyim throughout history, and they still massacred us. Alot of that can be blamed on specifically Christian anti-semitic teachings, but alot of it can be chalked up to good old tribalism, inflamed by the aformentioned Christian (or Islamic) teachings. The more tribalistic the population is, the more anti-semitism, the less safe we are. That's how it has been historically and how it it still is. Part of the problem with "we will provide utility to them" idea is that tribalistic people are usually pretty dumb, have a conspiratorial mindset, and will blame Jewish tribe for all their problems no matter how much utility the Jews provide. So it's much better to ally ourselves with the intelligent anti-tribalist people. We have historically fared much better in such societies, at least in terms of safety (Religiously, it might be a different story. Isn't that what the Beis Halevi said about הצילני נא מיד אחי מיד עשיו?)
But yes, it's a good idea to be good neighbors in order to reduce hatred. We are not good neighbors by any objective standard (at least in NY/NJ). I see it with my own eyes, and am appalled. We need to be much better. If you want a model for how we can be better, look to Baltimore.
You agree with no tax loopholes?
I definitely don't (unless it was a euphemism).
It may sound like a beautiful thing, but if it will cause a family to have one less child, or to be too stressed out when raising their children, it isn't worth it.
I think the exponential long-term benefit provided which large families provide to society far outweighs the loss of some taxed or Medicaid.
I assume we are talking about particularly shifty practices ("chaps") that most would see as dishonest, even if it's not 100% illegal. But most people in the world, and for sure businesses, try to minimize their taxes, nothing wrong with that. I can't say where to draw the line. But we definitely should seriously consider how such practices would be seen by the average non-Jew.
I'm having trouble squaring this with your earlier claim that: "Vitalist Judaism believes that Judaism is a pluralistic religion, with each individual, community and era having their own path and connection to God within the confines of the halachic structure. The pluralism allows for diverse paths of connection to G-d and provide a counterbalance to each other."
Could you help me out with this?
Not sure I understand the question.
You're making a lot of claims in this essay about what Jews need to do - including taking swipes at a number of other, unnamed Jews - and I am finding it hard to square this position with your earlier interest in Jewish pluralism. You sound very anti pluralist here, and and clearly anticipated that with your nod towards What's-His-Name. But maybe I'm not getting something here. Does that make more sense?
I am not taking a moral stand here, I am taking a pragmatic one. I fully understand if others do not agree with me and I would love to hear other takes.
As far as other jews, I only named ones that are anti-halacha. The framework that I laid out was within the confines of halacha….
Whats-his-name?
"Provide value to society." The ultra-orthodox could start by doing that in Israel. Such as by serving in the IDF and working a job.
Was waiting for this person.
"EVERYONE MUST EVACUATE TEHRAN IMMEDIATELY"
I think I'll stick to Ben Shapiro over Tucker Carlson.
Both are wrong….unless this is moshiach it will cause more jew hatred
I am getting unsubbed by a lot of people.
If you have a good argument against this post....I would love to hear.
https://open.substack.com/pub/stevenberger/p/tribes?r=1nm0v2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
I would like to post a full article in response to this if I have (or make) the time for it.
But first, I must repeat ad nauseum that criticizing other people is completely unproductive.
Especially re zoning issues: You have not offered any concrete alternative. Not that there isn't one, rather that criticizing the current situation is completely unproductive.
A prelude to my article (hopefully): I think the main thing Judaism has to offer these days is actually its core message and fits in very well with the vibe of the time (at least among intelligent people): Pronatalism, which stems from tribalism and nationalism and leads to a pro-growth, pro-abundance, pro-YIMBYISM, pro risk-taking, anti-universalism, anti anti inequality, anti NMBYISM, anti-environmentalism etc.
Currently there are 90k frum children in the Lakewood area, perhaps 350k in the entire NY and NJ. We should be pushing for Klal Yisroel to grow faster, not slower cha"v. We are the only ones still growing, aside for the Amish (even Mormons are barely at replacement rate).
Please outline a housing plan for hundreds of thousands of couples. Or at least start drawing a sketch. Do something productive, instead of focusing on criticizing.
Let's start with the fact that not everyone needs to live in the Lakewood area. If they still insist on living in and urbanizing that area, they shouldn't be surprised that the non-jewish local population gets riled up.
false dichotomy.
Yes we should spread out.
No that does not mean living in Lakewood justifies disregarding our neighbors..
My criticism was of you pushing for more NIMBYism as if its a good and necessary thing without explaining where you draw the line and, especially, putting forth an explanation what we can do as a community to provide housing in another way, as this dynamic is inevitable unless we find another option. As long as people are desperate for housing, your screams about 'all trees being felled for housing' will fall on deaf ears. That just how society operates.
It's unreasonable to tell Jews not to live somewhere, not to build houses and shuls and schools, because the goyim might get mad. If the Jews spread out, they would still need houses and shuls and schools. They would still cause more traffic. The solution is to focus on being good neighbors wherever we live. To say we are not trying hard enough to do that is an understatement (at least in the NY/NJ area).
> To say we are not trying hard enough to do that is an understatement (at least in the NY/NJ area).
I would just push back slightly on this and ask if you know anywhere in the U.S. where large housing developments have been created on the scale necessary for the hundreds of thousands of couples iy"H in the coming decades.
I think housing is the greatest crisis facing Charedi Jewry worldwide, and the greatest threat to their continued high fertility. We must acknowledge, nit shrug it off and pretend that developers are the enemy. And we must look for innovative solutions. For instance, Chassidim will hopefully soon create a new shtetel in Florida (Lakefront). Litvaks should probably start with growing frum communities in Ohio (and perhaps Detroit). Once they outgrow that they too can perhaps build new shtetels far from hostile neighbors. 50% of U.S farmland is supposed to be in themarket in the next 20 years.
These aren't final plans, only conversation starters, but the conversation should start here, not with pointing fingers at developers, who are currently doing perhaps the most important job for the future of Jewry and the future of the last remaining pronatalist community in the modern world. If we don't put a major focus, in fact perhaps of our focus, on providing housing for the next generations I fear our fertility rate too may crash, which will be the greatest of tragedies cha"v.
I'm not saying we should or we shouldn't, I'm only saying that our decisions have consequences. If we choose to pack everyone in one area, the locals are going to react, and, as Yosef wrote, labeling them as antisemites is counter-productive.
Not arguing with that. That's what I mean by being good neighbors. We have to be better. Much, much better. That starts with thinking about our impact on neighbors. Doing outreach with our neighbors. Giving to their charities. Not taking over school boards and cutting their funding. Driving safely. Honesty in business. And lots more where many feel we are severely lacking.
At the same time, we have to recognize there will probably be a base level of anti semitism, simply due to how different we are and how different our culture is. If we build too much dense housing, they will complain we are densifying the area. If we don't and instead buy up a lot more houses, they will complain we are buying up whole neighborhoods. The haters will hate no matter what. But we can definitely do our part to minimize it.
Both your comments on this are excellent.
they react because we overdevelop and don't care about their preferences at all
I'm sorry to say, but 'their preferences' are generally just wrong.
NIMBYism and the entire mindset and culture which is associated with it (anti-growth, antinataalism etc.) are the worst thing for AMerica nd the U.S.
America is a huge country. We don't need any NIMBYism. There is plenty of open and empty land for those interested. What America needs is a heavy dose of YIMBYism. We are at the forefront of this battle and we just adopt this role with gusto, though at the same time taking care as much as possible to remain within the mentality of a 'gallus yid' to try to avoid antagonizing the nonJews as much as possible.
I think Happy said it best.
Of necessity, our priorities are very different than theirs, both out of religious necessity and because we are the only growing societies and communities in (non-rural) western countries.
We can't prevent the backlash, but we should bend over backwards to accommodate them whenever feasible.
We should never, ever accuse anyone of anti-semitism. I don't think that was ever a charedi thing to so.
Agree
I agree 1000%. I can't even tell you how much agree (Yosef Hirsh knows somewhat.) That is not what I am arguing with. Please read my comment carefully.
"Especially re zoning issues: You have not offered any concrete alternative. Not that there isn't one, rather that criticizing the current situation is completely unproductive."
Shifting the conversation is productive
I don't agree.
Prayers for you…..